Q&A - Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma
Rene Ritchie, February 12th, 2008
Is the [Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma] stance used in fighting?
First, I would preface this by saying that Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma (Trapezoid Shaped Yang Pressing Horse) is not a stance, just like Tan Sao is not a pose.
We don’t just hold out a Tan Sao and hope that someone punches us in the exact way that Tan Sao will intercept. Rather, we put out an arm, and if the opponent reacts in a way that creates Tan Sao, Tan Sao is created in that moment, and the bridge is on to the next job.
Likewise, we don’t just stand in YJKYM (or any position) in case its benefits are needed. We stand naturally and if the opponent does something that generates YJKYM (including stands there and gets hit in a way YJKYM best delivers power for the hit), then YJKYM is created in that moment, and then the posture flows on to the next job…
Or . . .
You can view the YJKYM as (an example of) a certain sort of body mechanics, i.e., using your body in a specific way to do a certain thing. When viewed from that perspective, you can see the various horses as permutations of YJKYM.
Woah! I never thought I’d be saying this, but how the hell have you translated YJKYM Rene?? This is nowhere near the translation of the characters I’m familiar with so any further input by me on this subject will be fruitless… as with so many other eh Terence?
The literal translation is correct. Yee Jee = character 2 (which is trapezoid shaped), Kim = clamping or pressing inward, Yeung = yang (as in yum-yeung, the cantonese for yin-yang), and Ma = horse.
Dictionaries are wonderful things.
Terence & Rene say: Yeung = yang (as in yum-yeung, the cantonese for yin-yang)
This is the main point I’m disagreeing with. I have never heard this translation before in this context. Believe me, I know what yin yang is lol! The yeung character in question is ‘goat’ as far as I know.
That’s what I like about these threads. Always learning.
Yee - Two
Jee - Peaks (same as Biu Jee)
Kim - Gripping
Yeung - Goat
Ma - Horse/stance
We must have different characters, let alone different dictionaries! Actually quite strange considering Rene has also published this comment under the Biu Jee form:
“Jing San Hoi Yee Jee kim yeung ma (Zheng Shen Kai Er Zi Qian Yang Ma, Straight Body Opening Trapezoidal Clamping Goat Horse”
Hi Tifei,
Yip Man’s lineage uses the character Yeung meaning “goat”, while many mainland Chinese lineages, including Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung, Pan Nam, (and I think Koolo, Jim?), use a different character with the same sound meaning Yang as in Yin/Yang.
(It’s also worth noting that, for example, Yip Man’s sihing, Chan Yiu-Min, used Weng (Everlasting) Chun). Since some characters sound so similar, and literacy wasn’t always high in the old days, sometimes characters changed back and forth over branches and even generations.
As I said earlier, I hadn’t heard that before so today I learn something new about WCK family in the mainland. Thanks Rene.
It is interesting too that you mention Chan Yiu-Min used Weng Chun, and not Wing Chun. Why do you think this was? I have my own ideas, but I think it would be nice to hear your view.
I’ve finally found what you mean by Trapezoid! (I think) But it may help to hear ‘why’, in layman terms, we use the Yee Jee term in relation to our basic stance?
Maybe Terence can help us out here as I’d be interested to know more about the mechanics he mentions.
No worries TiFei!
With stuff like Yee Jee, Sup Jee, Gong Jee, Yaat Jee, etc., the Jee (Zi) refers to the actually Chinese character, in this case the physical shape of the pictograph. So, Sup Jee (Sup, meaning “ten” and looking like “+”) refers to a “cross shape” (the shape of the character Sup which looks like a cross). Likewise Yaat means “the sun” but the characters looks like a vertical rectangle, and refers to the shape of the fist held vertically (like we do in WCK).
So, Yee, literally “two”, looks like “=” but with the bottom stroke longer than the top. In geometry, the shape of something with two parallel sides and two convergent sides is “trapezoid”, and in WCK usually refers to the toes being closer than the heels, the knees being closer than the feet, etc. (the trapezoid geometry of the horse posture).
By contrast, the Hung Ga posture is referred to as Sei Ping Ma (Four Balance Horse), which is not trapezoidal but more squarish (four balanced) in shape.
Hey guys,
Nice subject. Yeung is not “Goat” for us. Its the same character for Yang as in Yin/Yang.
The Kim or clamping, pinching, has NOTHING to do with inward squeezing of the thighs! Absolutely NOTHING! This is the core problem with the YJKYM in todays Wing Chun community regardless of lineage.
If you clamp or pinch the goat inward the restriction/tension that will be developing will not only lock up the entire body but create heavy internal tension. The body has to function within natural dynamics. The outside of the body/shell (frame) is Yang and the inside is Yin. If you try to pinch/clamp inward you place a reverse effect on the body/YJKYM.
The Kim Yeung Ma is to Clamp the Yang “Meridian” Horse. This supports the structure within natural dynamics and not cause the above issues. Just an opinion.
Gotta run!
JR
This is a subject that is, imo, quite important in unifying WCK families. If we can not even agree on the same fundamental principles here for YJKYM, I fear we’re seeing the beginning of he end!
The Yee Jee explanation sounds the same as I remember, even the sap jee & sei ping ma etc are familiar to me. Maybe I shouldn’t have purposely written an incorrect translation, but I like to search the info in this way sometimes. See who can read.
But this Kim Yeung (yang) concept is still difficult for me to take in.
I can see what Jim is saying about the Yang “meridian” but I’m wondering of the loss of cultural implications. Clamping is a great way to look at the character. My knowledge of the ‘goat’ being used is paired with the idea that this expression comes from farmers, or shepherds if you like. Has anyone here ever sheared a goat? Believe me, you need to hold them with your knees in a clamping manner! We commonly understood the stance to best suit women due to their skirts being tightened round the thighs.
This is much different than using the yang character, although this yang body idea of the stance also links with common cross examinations of the sanchin katas of Karate. A different way of looking at the idea imo, but I even used to compare this method to a racing jockey, or fast horsemen as this is it’s direct link to military use imho.
All this culural reference is meaningless if the yeung character is not ‘goat’, and possibly why Ip Man used this meaning in his writings.
Finally, Weng Chun, as I understand it, relies on memory of verses whereas the Wing Chun Ip Man promoted is written down, especially for use in teaching teachers and what separates us from Shaolin ’soldiers’.