Karate Chun!
John Crescione, March 16th, 2008
They’ve done it — finally — after all these years and all the fears:
Unbelievable !!!
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« Secret Diary of Fake Ng Mui - Chapter and Verse
John Crescione, March 16th, 2008
They’ve done it — finally — after all these years and all the fears:
Unbelievable !!!
They had a WCK TKD school near me for a while. WCK hands + TKD legs was their motto. We also had some local WCK people entering Karate tournaments form divisions. I don’t think they ever won. Maybe a nice butterfly kick in Biu Jee would have helped! (Twister in MYJ, ‘natch!)
Take that guy out of his gi, and he’d look like just about any other WCK “practitioner.” The silliness isn’t the gi, but what he’s doing in the gi. In this case a form.
And when we’re not doing forms, we’re doing unrealsitic exercises like chi sao. Or we’re arguing about theory or lineage. Or writing articles about dim mak.
Talk about people in glass houses . . . .
That ‘guy’ Terence, is a ‘girl’! Although I agree with you on how the problem is in the form, not the gi!
I’m always dissappointed to see people BJ, as there are very few decent examples online imho. I’m just soooo glad mine looks nothing like this very bad ‘copy’…
Hi Spencer,
I’ve read a couple of time that you’ve only seen poor versions of Biu Jee online, compared to your own or that of your lineage IYO. I’d love to see a good version from your perspective.
I just put a few various versions below, any opinions?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLV4ovEJNtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtsEvZs2So8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arYcXbwKFpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE1DzZ7Xn9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fb0Z4X_8Uk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZVW51VHYU
There’s a lot more out there of course but this is a nice variety of versions. Sorry if I didn’t catch anyones favourites, I’m in a rush to go training.
Peace
Shen
The problem isn’t “in the form” it is that there is a form or linked set. It’s not how the form is being performed that matters. Forms themselves are nonsense, regardless of how they “look” or are performed.
So your form is just as silly. That you take forms seriously, believe your form is somehow better, etc. is all nonsense.
Oh C’mon now Terence! You’ll be saying that silk pyjamas don’t help achieve faster Ging release next…
Dunno. When you get to me my age, you sometimes need forms just to remember some moves! Now where did that hacking elbow get to…
“Forms themselves are nonsense, regardless of how they “look” or are performed.”
Spoken like a true pro oldskooler! Or by someone who has no clue as to what the form should even be about or why they are there. One of the two.
Another ‘classical mess’ inspired rant by Terence. Great reading though…
Rene,
People who practice boxing, wrestling, MT, judo, sambo, BJJ, etc. — not to mention every sport there is — seem to be able to “remember the moves” of their discipline without forms (linked sets) just fine.
TiFei,
I know very well what the forms are for: they are “texts” for the curriculum of our method. The trouble is that “models” have been proved, both by scientific researchers and by athletes of all kinds, to be a very poor way to learn and/or develop open skills (and fighting is an open skill). If linked sets or forms provided any benefit whatsoever, we would expect to see that benefit reflected in actual results (fighting performance). But we don’t. In fact, we see just the opposite. But they are the mainstay of fantasy-based martial arts.
TN,
That’s a good point. There’s another aspect to forms training that I think I’ll post in its own entry later today. (Making me think, you b@stid!)
Rene,
There are probably some benefits (to some degree, however small) to just about any sort of “practice”, so pointing out some benefits to form practice I think overlooks what should be the real issue. I think our focus should be on results (increased fighting performance using those things we train) and getting the biggest gains for our training investment of time/energy.
Okay Terence, fair points made here (as expected!)
I view the forms as a ’shell’ if you like, some are empty and some not depending on ‘how you practise’ your forms. By this I mean how you break them down, train for the skill it was designed for and then put it back together again with the skill already ingrained in the body. This is when the form ‘changes’ or adapts to each individual, as the training will definately have an affect.
I still feel you’re criticizing the wrong style though! IMO WCK is as simple as it gets. I was an oldskool Karate kid and loved to mess about with the Katas, but I would never ‘change’ the set pattern as it had a distinct purpose. The forms of WCK are not like this at all.
The individual sets within the forms can be manipulated into different orders, turned upside down and inside out and you will still get the same result in the end, whatever you do, as long as the actual ‘training’ is constant.
The example of BJ here is an empty shell, which has obviously had no WCK training behind it at all…
TiFei,
What you saying is the traditional way of looking at forms. I’ve heard it all before. The trouble is that’s nonsense. You can’t learn or become better at tennis or boxing or wrestling or etc. from a form, regardless of what you put into it. WCK is no different.
BTW, I am not criticizing a style. I am criticizing poor teaching and training methods. You don’t need forms to practice WCK. Forms are not WCK.
IMO, Forms are a great way to ‘contain’ the basic movements that contribute to an art. In that way, that art can be passed down to others without missing out basic stuff.
They also give a Sifu the chance to notice basic errors of power generation or body alignment which will be hard to spot if they have to glean all knowledge from observing a fight.
Teaching movements as San Sik or Forms facilitates this point IMO.
Now this is a different point than as to whether people train effectively or not. The ROI from doing forms alone would be ‘practically’ limiting. So if that’s the only way someone trains, whilst tossing in a side salad of application, this won’t bring about a good fighter. Agreed 100%.
But who says anything about not doing both? Once one learns the basics then they can train however they want. Own your Wing Chun and that includes how you train it.
If we just use a common reference point to avoid killing off the system, unless that’s a goal, then we will still be able to pass on the art, albeit from our own perspectives.
Just see the forms for what they are, take what you can from them (or not) and don’t confuse them with the entirety of the system. They are just a vehicle to reach somewhere, after all, not the destination.
Peace
Shen
Again, we have the sport crossover used as a reference. Why are we comparing a Martial Art to sport? I’m all up for modern ‘coaching’ methods and having a City & Guilds in Fitness & Nutrition or whatever but ultimately I’m more inclined to use a form to express the character of the style of Martial Art being taught. To me, this is their main purpose, to link us all together imo.
I would have thought that ’shadow’ playing would even be used in tennis, just as a boxer shadow boxes. This is their form play, their character undiluted standing on it’s own with no opponent. It’s only when I play boxing/tennis there is an opponent and objective.
I used to know a tennis player who would serve 1000 serves before matches, to ‘drill’ in his form, just as a boxer boxes 1000 rounds in training. It’s not my fault their form would only consist of a few signature moves! I mean, I could play a good game of tennis with a single set of SLT if I think of it in that way.
Competitive sport is great for competitive people, but may not be so great for the Martial Artist. A thorough programme is best imo, one reason that Form only makes up a quarter of our training at The Academy.
Shen,
Why don’t tennis players, boxers, wrestlers, etc. use forms or linked sets to (in your words) “notice basic errors of power generation or body alignment which will be hard to spot if they have to glean all knowledge from observing a fight”? They have no problem seeing basic errors in performance just fine without forms.
Your view is based on a misunderstand what an open skill is. There can be no correct “form” for an open skill since its very nature will require how it is performed to be adapted to the moment. Any model is just one possible representation of the skill. It is like trying to learn how to surf or to ride a bike from a form. It can’t be done. The form is a model, but in real life, in genuine application, what you do cannot conform to any fixed model. Every application will be different from the model. So the model is the exception, not the rule.
You are right that forms are a vehicle and not the destination. The problem is that there is overwhelming evidence that the vehicle doesn’t really take you anywhere, and certainly not closer to your destination.
TiFei,
One of the central problems with traditional martial arts is in how their practitoners view their arts. WCK is not the forms, drills, etc. That is the curricum, the text. WCK is an activity, it is fighting with our approach, with our tools. If and when we are not doing that, we are not practicing WCK. The skill in any activity comes from doing the skill, doing it as you will really do it. You learn to box and get better at boxing by boxing. Same with wrestling. And the same with WCK.
The great thing about combative sports is that they make the sport, the activity central to everything. And this is why they make such good progress. TMAs could learn a lot from sports. The fact we don’t train or act like is sport is a problem.
Shadow boxing is not like doing forms. In shadow boxing you are doing what you will really do in boxing (fight), as you will really do it, etc.
You are correct that athletes do lots of drills to develop skills. However, they are doing realistic drills, doing the skills they will actually be using as they will really be using them. This is not what TMAists, and WCK people, do.
Terence,
I very much agree with you in regard to the ‘doing’ WCK as an open skill. I understand the difference between a closed skill and an open one. No probs. Open could be playing basketball in an ever changing environment, closed could be taking a point shot, as example.
FYI The way I train is very ‘open’. I improve my ability to do WCK by doing it, heavy sparring etc…
I also supplement this with isolation drills to better understand the errors I may make during my training but then switch straight back to the ‘open’ environment to really cement that skill. I do also maintain my forms but I don’t confuse that with the bulk of my training, it has a different purpose to me.
This has nothing to do with my other points though, with regard to the inclusion of a curriculum.
I ask you honestly, if you were to teach someone who had no prior martial training, in any fighting style, how would you begin with their training?
If you would isolate certain ways of doing something then you would still be teaching ala San Sik methods. What would you cross reference in your head to make sure you really covered all the movements in WCK that you needed to pass on? What would you base your teaching of the footwork on etc…
You see, you did learn the forms. You DO have a reference point. It’s therefore impossible for you to speculate as to what you would do if you’d never learned in that manner. It’s ok for someone with your experience to then look deeper and say, actually, I don’t need forms (anymore) as I found this way and honestly, it’s way more advanced. But you did begin somewhere and that is my point. We all begin somewhere. How we train later as we develop, is another story.
Also, you shouldn’t assume that all TMA or WCK people train in one way and one way only, that is rather presumptuous if you don’t mind me saying so.
Peace
Shen